84: How to Talk About Antiracism as a Podcaster and Entrepreneur with Dr. Lucretia Berry - Part 1
Dr. Lucretia Berry is the founder of Brownicity; an agency dedicated to advocacy, education, and support for racial healing and antiracism. She is a former college professor whose love for humanity led her to author What LIES Between Us: Fostering First Steps Towards Racial Healing, a journey guide designed specifically for ‘beginners.’ She is the Anti-race/ism Curriculum Specialist for Community School of Davidson (NC), a contributor for (In)courage.me, a TEDx speaker, and more.
I first heard Dr. Berry as a guest on a show I was editing for one of my clients and, as someone at the beginning of their own antiracism journey, I connected with her message right away and knew I needed to have her on this podcast to help me talk topic of race and antiracism through the lens of a podcaster and entrepreneur.
In part one of my conversation with Dr. Berry, she shares the difference between the terms “Black” and “African American”, why it’s important to capitalize “Black”, the difference between a debate, a discussion, and a dialogue, which one of those we should be having as people who communicate in such public ways, and more!
Be sure that you come back next week where she’s going to share why it’s harmful to try to separate antiracism from your podcast and business, how to ease into these complex conversations after taking a step back to do some inner work, how to diversify your podcast guest list in a way that doesn’t involve tokenism or do cause harm to Black people, and more!
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Transcript
Welcome to podcasting for coaches. I'm Britany Felix and I'm a podcast launch consultant who specializes in helping coaches and consultants utilize the power of podcasting as a way to build brand awareness and generate new leads for their business. I realize not every new coach or consultant can afford to hire someone to help launch their show. So I created this podcast as a way to guide you through the process of launching and utilizing your very own podcast to help you grow your business and reach a new audience of adoring followers and potential clients. If you're ready to get your voice and podcast out into the world, head over to podcasting for coaches.com to learn more. Welcome to 84 podcasting for coaches. It is nice to be back. I took the month of June off if you're not aware, to take some time to process and do some inner work around anti racism and everything that has just been happening in the country. And I also had some personal family issues, some health issues, relative pass away those kinds of things. So June was super fun. But I'm really excited to bring you this interview with Dr. Lucretia Berry. She's somebody that I actually heard as a guest on one of my clients shows. And once I heard her, I one knew I had to get into her program, which we're going to talk about today. But to I also really wanted to have her come on the show. Because as podcasters and business people in this crazy time that is happening right now, it can be a little intimidating to know how to talk about these topics while also still making money so that you can pay your bills and feed your family. So I'm going to read you Dr. Berry's bio, and then we're just gonna get right into the content of the episode. So Dr. Lucretia berry is the founder of brownness at an agency dedicated to advocacy, education and support for racial healing and anti racism. She is a former college professor whose love for humanity led her to write what lies between us fostering first steps towards racial healing, a journey guide designed specifically for beginners. She is the anti race slash racism curriculum specialist for Community School of Davidson in North Carolina, a TEDx speaker, and a whole host of other amazing, amazing things. In this episode, Dr. Barry and I talk about the importance of really getting some basics down when you're going to be discussing these kinds of topics. Because it's really easy to make some mistakes and not even realize that's what you're doing. So in part one of our conversation, we talked about the difference between the words black and African American, why you need to capitalize the word black, the difference between not being racist and being an anti racist. And then one really interesting perspective that I learned from Dr. Berry by going through her program, brown isset II, which I am currently a member of, is the difference between a debate a discussion and a dialogue. So many people are like, well, we need to have a discussion about this, we really need to all start talking with each other and just sit down and have a discussion. And Dr. Barry's gonna point out why that is actually not the right approach to take. And it is not discussions that we should be having. And all of that we're going to talk about today. And next week. In part two, be sure that you come back for that second half, because we're going to talk about specifically how to get into talking about these topics in such a public way. And coming back from a break if you have taken one as a result of everything going on. Thank you so much for listening. And I hope that you enjoy my interview with Dr. Barry. Lucretia, thank you so much for being on the show today. As we talked a little bit in the pre interview chat, I am super, super excited to have you here. And I know that my listeners are going to find our conversations extremely valuable, because a lot of them are like I was a few weeks ago, like I still am just really unsure and uncomfortable and feel like they're gonna say the wrong thing all the time. So they're kind of scared to talk about these topics of racism, anti racism, how to be a good ally. And with having a business and talking in such a public way on a podcast. It can be really intimidating to know when to speak up and when to hold back and what to say, and being afraid of canceled culture right now. So if you don't mind, I kind of want to just dive into this here because we have a lot of a lot of things to cover in a short period of time. So I think it's important to get some of the language down right off the bat and like okay, in terms of writing and speaking so I know that I personally, you know, growing up a white woman I grew up I was a child in the 90s like we had all the things that come with that being a privileged little white girl. So I was always taught that You know, the the PC term in air quotes is African American. And so I've noticed that a lot of the people that are my age range, my ethnicity, and those kinds of things we're struggling with even just being comfortable using the word black, especially, you know, white people, it feels really taboo to use the word black, it feels almost like an insult, because that's kind of what our parents taught us is, you know, that's not the right term, like you say, African American. And so now we just kind of struggle even just saying the word. So what language should we be using when referencing people of color and everything that is happening in the world right
05:34
now? Well, I mean, it is good that you know, that people of color, so people of color means anybody who is non white, we have to understand that we have ethnicities, or we are ethnicities, but we also have been put in racial categories, like no white and black. So historically, in the United States, you know, with the census, those were the categories, white and black. And then they added other, so there's that. And of course, it has expanded to become more inclusive of a broader story that we are all encompassed in, but those are essentially racial categories. Now, there was a point where black men, you know, African American, but currently, Black has become the term meant for anyone who is a descendant of the African diaspora. So of course, again, you have to have history, or to know the history of how, of course, Africans were taken from the continent, and taken to, you know, various continents, you know, as workers as laborers, and enslaved. And so if you are descendant from that, or even, you know, now if you just come from Africa, you fit in the broader category of, of black. So, for example, I can, I can go to South Africa, and there, you know, Black is still my racial category. And then, in the United States, those of us like me, who are descendants of enslaved Africans who were brought to America, we are African Americans. So my friend who is black, but from Jamaica, she is not African American. She is Jamaican American. So yeah, the terms are different. And for African Americans, I mean, I can't speak for us all, because it does depend sometimes on the generation. Some people prefer the term African Americans, some people prefer the term black. But when you get to know people, and they're your friends, you can always simply ask, but again, when you're talking about broader, like, the African diaspora, either they're saying that or you say, black, and then we're talking specifically about descendants of formerly enslaved Africans. That's the African American.
07:45
Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. And another thing that I am seeing more and more as I enter these conversations, is capitalization of the word black.
07:54
Right. And that is because black is also is a culture is a recognized culture. So it's different than just a racialized category like wipe. So Black has now become not just this imposed upon culture that exists outside of the majority culture, it's its own culture, and encompasses things that make up a culture. And so we capitalize it, to give it the respect, and to elevate it to the degree of humanity that it deserves.
08:26
Thank you for that explanation. The next thing I want to kind of define is the difference between not being racist and being anti racist. Because there are a lot of people who are, you know, like, well, well, of course, I'm not racist. I have a black friend. Yeah. You know, so and that is not great. Let's maybe kind of define the difference between not being racist and being anti racist.
08:53
Okay, so essentially, we can be in the status quo and going with the flow of things. So let's just take moms against drunk drivers. That's a movement and an organization that we are familiar with that was kind of birthed out of all the travesties that occurred from drunk drivers, you know, who, for unfortunately, causing fatalities. So, like, you could just say, Well, I don't drive drunk, and that's good enough, right? So I'm a non drunk driver, but to be actively, you know, to be active, would be like, Okay, I'm going to form an organization or I'm going to be intentional about putting things in place that would prohibit drunk drivers from destroying lives. So that's, that's kind of the different so now we have different laws in place because of mom's against drunk drivers. You know, we have an organization, we have a protocol, we have policies, we have all of these things in place to disrupt and interrupt kind of the culture of growth. Driving that was happening. So same thing with racism to a degree. You can say you can say, Well, no, I'm not, I'm not racist, but that does nothing to engage in dismantling the policies, the practices, the beliefs, the systems that have all worked to create kind of this culture, in this way, race base and racist culture that we are, you know, we've just been, you know, cultivated, right. And so to be anti racist means that you are actively kind of going in the opposite direction, you know, pulling down false ideologies and false beliefs, you're intentionally addressing harmful practices, or even looking for the gaps that have better exists because of, you know, historical racist practices. So it's Yes, active, you're being very intentional about, you know, the books you read, and the authors you follow. And, like, I have one friend who she is white, her family is way she jokes that she is they are very white, because they're very fair skinned. She intentionally enrolls her children and herself in extracurricular activities, where they are the racial minority, but she's trying to intentionally like break the kind of the status quo racializing that occurs when you maintain the racial kind of homogeneous groups. Mm hmm.
11:24
That is fantastic. And that's something that I personally have had to learn because all my life like I've lived in a very, like open and welcoming family, like I never would have classified myself, you know, as as being racist in any shape, way or form. But I had to learn, you know, within the past month and a half, that that's not the same thing. Anti racism was never a term that I heard before. And so that was a shift that my mind had to make. And I did have to break down and deconstruct the ways that I never realized that racism was inherent just in my upbringing, not by my parents, but by my school system by the programs I watched on TV, who had all white cast. And those are, those are the things that I think a lot of people just don't see, because I've never had to confront it before. Right. So as uncomfortable as all of this is anyone listening, you know, for you listening, I really hope that you do this work, and that you look into Brown, sad, because it's wonderful. And it creates a safe space where you can explore these things and deconstruct everything that you've that has been instilled into you, and that you didn't even realize, right. So as we move into having these discussions, we do this in our work, and we start to learn these things. And we want to become more actively involved in anti racism. There are ways to have these conversations that are constructive in ways that are not and I love that you break down in brown ecity. This difference between a debate a discussion and a dialogue. Do you mind explaining the difference between those three things?
12:50
Right? Okay. So I'll first say that we typically in pop culture don't have dialogue, because we've inherited the colorblind approach, which has robbed us of language and a framework. And it's kind of this fundamental understanding that we need to be able to have healthy gold oriented conversations or engage in the discourse that would move us further. Because we don't have that. And we're kind of we tend to just be informed by like a whitewashed history, or very European centric history, or sometimes just anecdotal stories, or what you see on the news, and even political platforms, and people will tell me, I'm not political, and then they'll just recite a whole political platform regarding race. And I'm like, right, you don't even know. But this is because I don't know, like, fundamentally, our institutions of education have done us a disservice because we have these debt, this deficit of understanding race as a mechanism and how race is not biological or genetic. But it was created by policies and beliefs and practices, you know, in terms of sorting people and getting some and divesting others. So people think that the goal is to debate and with the debate debate, you have, you know, might is right, so that becomes about, well, I'm stronger than you are, I have more talking points are in there. And the thing is, there is no debate, you know, I tell this to my high school students at the beginning of the year, and then they're in off for the rest of the year. This was an acceptable practice, like racism and racist ideas were so acceptable, that it's all written down. No one was hiding it, there was nothing to be embarrassed about. So all you have to do is just show people here it is written right here, policies, even in the you know, the Constitution, it's all written there. So there's no debate, like you either are for anti racism or you're not. There's no debate there. And there are no sides. It's like you're either working against racism or you're for it. Maybe those are the sides, you know, but there's not this like, well, if I win, that means, you know, races loses or wins, you know, people come at it from that perspective. And so there really isn't a debate. I mean, need to be educated. So you have a foundation, one of my favorite quotes I've heard is equally informed people seldom disagree. So that's why it's important to have an education because then you there's no disagreement, right? Well, you're equally informed. And so you can have this dialogue. And then that brings me to discussion. And I know that, you know, discussion is such a common word. And oftentimes, we want to kind of create maybe a Kumbaya, you know, table and say, Okay, everybody, with all your differences come to the table, and let's talk that's dangerous on so many levels, because you have people who know very little and a discussion, like the noisier you know, the smarter to the person again, you know, I have more talking points, I have all of these things to say. And it really just like discussions, encourage talking, when oftentimes, we should be listening, you know, and learning like taking in instead of putting out in terms of first steps, you know, first steps are like, okay, be quiet and learn, learn, learn, learn, not talk, talk, talk, talk, talk talk, right? So that's why, again, it's, it could be a tough conversation, because people want to start with a discussion. And I gotta tell you, when I ever I'm invited to a discussion. Oh, thank you. Yeah, and trauma specialists are saying, you know, that's actually traumatizing people more. And so then that brings me to dialogue. And the dialogue is connectivity for community. So you have a goal. So what's your goal? So typically, when I, because I'm a teacher, I cultivate learning experiences. And so my goal is to get you from, you know, I didn't know this to Now I know that. Now I know it, right. So that's our goal. And so we move forward together, trying to reach the goal. And that's why it's important to start with dialogue or be equipped, so that you can engage in dialogue.
17:01
Perfect. Yeah, I love that. It seems like debate, especially. The goal is to win, not to learn not to grow, not to evolve, it's to win. And even discussion, it makes sense. When you say, well, let's come together and have a discussion about this. It's usually because there are opposing opposing viewpoints. And you think what's going to happen is everyone's going to magically start understanding everyone else's side. And no kids are still coming into that with the will This is my stance, and I want to share what that is they want to be heard, right. So speaking about education, that can get really iffy, depending on where you're getting your education from.
17:41
Yes,
17:42
one thing that I mean, I guess, fortunately, I did learn this years ago. So it wasn't something I had to learn this time around. But a lot of people still think that a way to be an ally is to ask black people, well, what can I do? How can I help you? Yeah, and it's not a black person's job to educate a white person on all of this. And just like you said, it makes them relive trauma over and over and over again, every time they have to think about this and talk about this, in educating somebody else and doing the work for them. So what do you recommend for somebody? And of course, we can talk about renessa here, but what do you recommend for somebody who's starting this anti racism journey? And they're not quite sure where to go to get this unbiased education? And, you know, they don't want to put the onus on somebody else, they want to do the work themselves.
18:29
Right? Well, first, I do want to address this myth that black people know the stuff, because that's not necessarily the case, either. And when I first started to teach publicly, my classes, like of adults were multi ethnic or multiracial. And there were several people of color, who would say, like, they didn't know this stuff. And when they learned it, you know, it validated them more like a gave their stories and their experiences, more context. And so they needed to start at the very same place, you know, have a foundational understanding to actually like, jumpstart their own healing. Yeah. So there's that part like this, because you have a black friend, does it mean that they actually understand things to a degree beyond their own story? Now, some might, but we can't assume that they do. And, yeah, that's why I again, a part of my cultivating a psychologically safe space is so that, you know, we can learn together. So if I, you know, not if I am African American, but like i, there are things that you know, I need to learn, I'll just say my husband who was white, so like, you know, he would need to learn, but we need a space that's cultivated, you know, so we can learn separately because some people have that approach. Or if you're in spaces together, there needs to be things in place that you aren't kind of engaging in this, like trauma informed way of Yeah, a way of doing things. The great thing about right now is there are so many great resources, I would say five years ago, it was a little different, difficult. And even me, I thought, because my education, my background is in education. You know, when I was within the walls of academia, I thought that the world was learning the same thing that I was learning, because I was all the great resources are there. And then I came out from behind those walls, and oh, no, the resources aren't out here. And so burning city is kind of this bridge, between the good quality instruction and forum scholarly instruction that is available on a college campus, if you so choose to engage, but bridge that to families who, you know, you can't pay 1000s of dollars to take a class or you can, you know, sort of bring that same heart and intention to educate. So we, you know, function as a resource like that. But again, now, there's so many great books that are available and other curriculum that are available, and organizations that have a heart and a goal to equip, and grow the capacity and grow like, you know, people's capacity to be anti racist and engage in actively dismantling racism. So I would say, you know, I'm always like, educate, first educate. First start with history if, like, always start with the history First, if you're doing something, and it's starting with here are the sets here or you're like, don't do that. Sorry,
21:31
you can go through the motions without understanding why
21:33
exactly, I can't talk, my favorite kind of testimonial story is a from a teacher, a white teacher in Iowa, who said, she did our course, a six week course with us. And she said, in my, whatever, 23 years of teaching, and I was, you know, part of diversity and inclusion initiatives, she said, they told us what to do, but they never told us why she said, I learned more in this six weeks than I have in all my years of teaching. Wow. And we hear that a lot like people will say, but I do diversity work, or I do diversity and inclusion work where I've taken these workshops, but I did not know this stuff. Well, that's because we need to start by filling in the gaps. You know, we it's like if we've been starved, you know, you don't say, Okay, you've been starving all this time. Now run this race. No, you're like, had your nutrients, you know, build up your muscle. Before you take off, you know, running. So that's my advice. If you're going to start with anything, or program or book, something, make sure you start with history first.
22:42
Well, now to wrap up part one here, you do have brown St. And you do have these resources. So do you mind explaining exactly what that is for the person listening who wants to go deep into this, and they want to start with the history and they want to learn in a safe space, just let them know how they can do that with Brenna city.
22:58
Great. So Brown, the city offers a membership site. And so we've created like an online learning community, you can enroll, you can pay like $10 a month, this is our, you know, starter year, so it's only $10 a month, or $110 a year. And you go in and you can take we have two starter courses are like one is called foundations. The other one is called what lies between us. It's the same content. It's just that what lies between us is typically used in churches, and foundations is used for like schools and organizations, staff. So you get in there, and you do those. And then there's all these other courses in there, like raising Texas kids and race, trauma and resilience. And we will continue to add courses. So you will know as much as you want to keep going and being supported in your learning, you can do that, you know, you can talk to us in there. So it's his own little kind of school for you consummate it for people who want that support learning. And of course, you could just read a book. But if you want the support at learning, that's what brand mysteries membership site is for. And it's for people who are committed to the learning journey, we have cultivated a space for you.
24:16
Yeah, I love it. And one thing I want to point out, I am currently going through the foundations one and I know that you mentioned for like staff and schools and things but an individual can go through it as well. So for you listening, yeah, yeah, don't feel like oh, well, that that doesn't apply to me because you absolutely can and it will be very beneficial.
24:32
I'm sorry, I'm yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound that way. What I'm in is in person, I will teach it to an entire staff. But for example, as we get new staff, maybe they missed that. I mean, it's a part of onboarding for schools and community. So yeah, you go through it at your own pace as an individual.
24:52
Okay, well, thank you so much. Lucretia. And I cannot wait for everyone to come back next week because we are going to dive more specifically into how to handle these calls. conversations in a public way like on social media as a business owner and on a podcast. So make sure you come back next week.
25:07
Thank you.
25:11
And that wraps up another episode of podcasting for coaches. If you'd like to connect with me further, you can do so on Instagram at podcasting for coaches. If you know it's time to finally get serious about starting your podcast, go to podcasting for coaches comm and click on the work with me tab in the main menu to learn more about my one on one launch consultation packages or my self paced online course. And I look forward to seeing the podcast that you create and put out into the world.