112: Using Pod Swaps to Grow Your Network with Diann Wingert
What’s This Episode About?
Diann Wingert is a business mindset coach for female entrepreneurs. During her previous 20+ year career as a licensed psychotherapist, she worked with hundreds of ambitious women who struggled to achieve the success they desired. After realizing that psychotherapy was not the answer, Diann trained and certified as a coach to shift the conversation from problems to possibilities.
Diann is an expert on the intersection between mindset, mental health, and entrepreneurship and is committed to helping others make an income while making an impact. When she is not coaching, Diann can be found exploring her newly adopted city of Portland, OR with rescue chihuahuas and her German-born husband. Diann is a coffee lover, Peloton enthusiast, and host of The Driven Woman Podcast.
In this episode, Diann shares how she utilizes client success stories on her podcast, what she means when she uses the term “pod swaps”, how she determines which podcasters she wants to collaborate with, how she initiates the process of a pod swap; including a highly effective and vastly underutilized strategy, how long she nurtures a relationship before pitching a pod swap and how the length of time varies between Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram, why she feels it’s worth it to spend a good amount of time researching potential guests before reaching out to them with the idea of a pod swap, what her follow-up process is like after she records the pod swaps so that she can continue fostering the relationship, the strategy of recording one interview and using it on both podcasters shows, her advice for streamlining the pod swap process so even a one-person team can do it, and more!
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Transcript
Welcome to podcasting for coaches. I'm Britany Felix and I'm a podcast launch consultant who specializes in helping coaches and consultants utilize the power of podcasting as a way to build brand awareness and generate new leads for their business. I realize not every new coach or consultant can afford to hire someone to help launch their show. So I created this podcast as a way to guide you through the process of launching and utilizing your very own podcast to help you grow your business and reach a new audience of adoring followers and potential clients. If you're ready to get your voice and podcast out into the world, head over to podcasting for coaches.com to learn more.
Welcome to Episode 112 of podcasting for coaches. This week's guest is Diane wingert and she is a business mindset coach for female entrepreneurs. During her previous 20 plus year career as a licensed psychotherapist, she worked with hundreds of ambitious women who struggled to achieve the success they desired. After realizing that psychotherapy was not the answer, Diane trained and certified as a coach to shift the conversation from problems to possibilities. Diane is an expert on the intersection between mindset mental health and entrepreneurship and is committed to helping others make an income while making an impact. When she is not coaching Diane can be found exploring her newly adopted city of Portland, Oregon, with rescue Chihuahuas and her German born husband, Diana's a coffee lover, peloton, enthusiast, and oh, also the host of the driven woman podcast. In this episode, Diane shares how she utilizes that client success stories on her podcast. Even though it's a little off topic, I just had to ask her about it. So that's a little bit of a bonus for you. What she means when she uses the term pod swamps, how she determines which podcasters she wants to collaborate with how she initiate the process of a pod swap, including a very specific, highly effective and vastly underutilized strategy. How long she nurtures a relationship before pitching a pod swap and how the length of time varies between Facebook, LinkedIn and Instagram. Why she feels it's worth it to spend a good amount of time researching potential guests before actually reaching out to them with the idea of a pod swap. What her follow up process is like after she records the pod swap so that she can continue fostering the relationship. The strategy of recording one interview and using an on both podcaster shows her advice for streamlining the pod swap process so that even a one person team can do it, and so much more. All of the resource links can be found in the show notes by going to podcasting for coaches.com, clicking on the episodes tab in the main menu and going to episode number 112. Alright, and that's it, we're gonna jump right on in with Diane. Diane, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been a little bit of a journey to get to this point, we had some technical issues the first time we tried to record. So I really appreciate you sticking it out. And I'm just really excited for this conversation because you and I seem to connect really well on lots of things. So why don't you start off by giving our listeners just a little brief introduction into more about who you are, they've heard your formal bio, they know about your show, but give us just a little bit more so that they can feel more connected to you.
3:26
But then, you know, I was a therapist for many, many years before deciding to certify as a coach and pivot into that. And mainly because I wanted the location independence. And I didn't want to be governed by all the rules and regs that come with being a therapist, such as I can't swear with my clients or anything like that. But I really love podcasting because it's an opportunity to teach to provide value for free and also connect with potential clients. But what I love the most about it is I get to do my networking without even having to leave the home. And unlike you, I am an extrovert. But I just appreciate the convenience of not having to get in the car and fight with traffic or any of those things. So I've been a podcaster for about 15 months and a guest for about three years.
4:14
Awesome. Okay, so before we really dive into the main topic that I want to talk about, which is this idea of like swapping pot appearances and things like that to grow your network and grow your show, as the title of this episode suggests, you do something else on your show that I think is interesting, and that as you share client success stories. So do you mind just kind of briefly explaining what that means and what that looks like and how it helps your your podcast and your business?
4:40
No, I'd love to. When I first launched the podcast during the pandemic, I launched as a solo show with very brief episodes. For the first 25 episodes. I wanted to just see how do they feel about hosting my own show. And then I quickly knew I wanted to talk to other people and not just stand in my closet talking to myself. But as I started to get really, really good results with the clients I was getting, I thought you know, this is it's nice that you can have a testimonial to put on your website. It's nice when you can put it into writing on social media. But what would be better for a potential client to hear my relationship with someone that's actually hired me worked with me. And it's now on the other side of that coaching engagement. So I pitched it to one of my clients, and they said, I'd love it. And it's become a thing. Now, they are now some of my most popular most downloaded episodes, and people really love them. And they do turn into clients too. So it's somewhat organic, it was an excuse to reconnect with some of my favorite people after the coaching engagement, we do a very brief amount of prepping for it. And I will remind them this, these were the things that you hired me to address. This is kind of where you were at the beginning of our time together, these are the things that we did along the way. And this is where you ended up, is there anything that's off limits that you don't want to share? Don't want to talk about because I coach female entrepreneurs, is it okay if I pitch your business as part of this episode, as well. And so then we just hit it, and I love doing it. In fact, I now have several clients who are volunteering to do it, because it was one of the ways that they connected with me, and they're like, I have made it one of my goals for coaching with you to be one of your success stories on the podcast. I'm like hell yeah.
6:29
Well, I love that. I love that so much. And I do think that is a different take from what we've had on the show before where we've talked about doing live coaching sessions, and putting those out as podcast episodes, or, you know, I even have my own clients come back on the show, and we just talk about how their podcast has helped their business. But it's not really a success story about like, what our work together was like, I mean, obviously, we accomplished the podcast, but we really focus on that. So this I like is a is a nice little twist on it. So I appreciate you sharing that. And now let's get into the real meat of this episode, which are pod swabs. What the hell are they just explain really briefly what pod swaps are to you?
7:09
Well, I'm a huge fan of made up words, I have almost an entire language that only I and the people closest to me understand. So I just use the term pod swaps, to refer to I reach out to someone that I am a fan of I listen to their podcast, I love their work. And I would love to have them as a guest on the driven woman. And then I will if we have a successful interaction, I will say it failed by having me as a guest on your podcast. That's if it's more of a cold pitch. If it's someone that I have a connection with, I will pitch it from the get go saying let's do this as a content collaboration. And of course, I'm sometimes I'm pitching them personally, it depends on the nature of the relationship. And sometimes I have someone from my team do it, I have a marketing assistant, who will reach out on my behalf. But most content creators these days are looking for deficiency as well as value. So the idea of we are serving similar or adjacent audiences, and we can schedule maybe an hour, hour and a half together, have our little chit chat, record one record the other and then we both promote both episodes. I've been tracking the results. And I think it's really nice. Plus, the other benefit is when you're working with other podcasters. They know what good podcast etiquette is they have the right equipment. And you know, they're going to show up and deliver. So it's worked out really nicely. And I like these episodes a lot.
8:36
Yeah, well, I love that you brought up when you you know work with her interview other podcasters because that's one of the great things about this show is generally speaking, that people who come on as my guests have a podcast of their own. I had another podcast, my very first one that went for like two years, where I interview people who traveled full time. And just the difference in and like you said etiquette efficiency quality is lightyears ahead with people who are used to podcasting. So for those of you listening, if you're considering having guests on your show, try reaching out to fellow podcasters first who might be a good fit, especially towards the beginning, it's going to set a really nice tone and base level of quality for the podcast as people start to get used to it. So I was curious whether or not you mentioned that this whole, like content collaboration from the get go. And so I like that you answered that. I appreciate that. But can you talk to us just a little bit more about this process? Like, is it podcasts that you're already a fan of that you decide to reach out to that you listen to? Or how do you find the shows to possibly, you know, collaborate with these people.
9:43
I've done a lot of different approaches Britany over the last year and I'm very big fan of just trial and error and testing things out. I read all the popular news, it says do it this way, do it that way, but I can tell you as the recipient of dozens have cold pitches every week that are done poorly. That's often my guide. You know, this is not how to do it. And sometimes I'll give those people some feedback. I think it would be more skillful if you try it this way. But what I like to do is and what is working really well for me now, I don't know if anyone else is teaching this, but I'm enjoying it. So I have a bunch of templates that I've created for emails and so forth. So I will email all of my guests and say, Hey, I noticed that you've been on this, this this this podcast. And would you mind if I mentioned your name? Because I would like to pitch a pod swap to them. Most of time, they're like, Yeah, great. Do you want me to introduce you? Do you want me to recommend you, so then it's no longer a cold pitch. And generally speaking, the people who have been my guests, our guests on shows that would be appropriate for me, and their hosts would be appropriate as my guests as well. So it's much more of a warm, I really think of it more as like podcast related networking, as opposed to pitching, because I think most cold pitches end up in the spam file or in the trash folder. They don't know you, they even if you sound like you might be interesting, so many of them sound generic, but when I'm reaching out to the other shows that my guests have been on. And then I also have a email template that I asked them, are there other shows that you would recommend? And even if they say no, to a pod swap? I'll say, that's great. I remain a fan of your show. By the way, can you think of anyone that you might recommend that this would be appropriate for now, if there are a couple levels above me, meaning they're much more of a big deal, they've got a much bigger audience, they've been doing this much longer, they're more of a household name, then I will first before I present this as an option, I will first be following them on social media, liking, commenting, sharing, and I will have rated and reviewed their podcast so that I am not a stone cold stranger when they hear from me. I don't need to do all of that when it's this first degree of separation through a guest that I've had. But it's if you have the time, or have someone on your team that can do it. You're warming people up even before you sent that first email.
12:09
Yeah. And how long would you say that you do that interaction with them? Like on social media and those sorts of things? Is there generally a period of time that you do that before reaching out to talk about a collaboration or have them be a guest?
12:21
I find that Instagram things move more quickly. Facebook, I might spend a month LinkedIn, I might spend six weeks to two months, but an Instagram things can happen pretty quickly. I mean, I'm you you know how it is. You get in the DMS and it's back and forth, back and forth. Yeah, within a few days, you've got something scheduled. So naturally, I like Instagram better because things are faster. But it really depends on the guests. I don't like the approach that I have. This has happened to me to where someone will reach out on Facebook, send me a friend request. And I'll say, Okay, we've got a bunch of people in common, I'll say yes. And literally five minutes later they start with the hard cold pitching process. Yes. Just unfriend unfollow. Yeah, I'm not sitting at my forwarding address by by. So I wouldn't do anything like that to someone else. But I think a couple weeks minimum to a month, so that it doesn't feel so predatory.
13:13
Okay, well, thank you. Yeah. So when you do these like podcast collaborations, do you normally suggest ideas for both shows? Because I know that a lot of times when people pitch they're like, oh, here are some things I think I could talk about. Most of the time, they're not actually relevant to your show or your audience because people don't do their research. But are you also saying like, well, and then like, I would love to have you on my show to maybe talk about these few things. And then I could come on your show to talk about these few things like, how in depth Do you really get with this pitch to collab? Or is it a lot more simple than that?
13:46
It's both simple and strategic. I was a therapist for such a long time, I know how to open people up, I know how to interview and I love storytelling. So I'm really not interested in the canned interview, where they tell me the exact same things they tell it's literally like plug and play, you can feel them checking out. I don't think my audience is interested in that. And I know I'm not. So I'm looking for an angle. I may know something about that person that they don't necessarily talk about all the time. But if I'm following their account, I'm like, you know what, this may not be on their list of three topics that they have their assistant pitch them for. But I think if they'd be interested in talking to me about that, my audience would eat it up. So I will present that. And you can only do that skillfully, if you're familiar with their show, and their content and their style. So this is a little bit of an investment. But I have a marketing assistant who is researching and using keywords. For example, one of the things because I'm an expert in ADHD and a lot of online marketers have ADHD let it coaches have ADHD. So I'm looking for people who aren't necessarily in the ADHD world, but maybe they have ADHD or they know something about it. And I interviewed a bunch of people and had a bunch of guests talking about one of the things that's associated with ADHD rejection sensitivity. But I wasn't going on those shows. And I wasn't interviewing the same guests that everybody else is like, for example, people don't know Mel Robbins has ADHD. I'd love to have her. I'd love to have Simone Biles raiser a few degrees away. But if you can figure out something about the person that might lead to a very unique and interesting conversation for your guests, your pitch is going to stand out from everyone else's, yes, it's a little bit more time. But I think the results are going to be better because in any way you can stand out, even just proposing a content collaboration. Instead of saying, I want to be a guest, I want to be a guest, I'm going to be a guest Pick me Pick me Pick me, that's so annoying. I'd like to work together on this. And because I'm being a little bit more selective. I'm really interested in having relationships with people where this pod swap may not be the end, we may go on to do other content collaborations, we may end up creating a product together doing a webinar together doing a masterclass together, I've been invited to come and teach to other people's communities through things like this. So I think of it as a good relationship builder as well as content creator.
16:29
So to that end, what do you do after you've recorded the episode they're released? How do you foster that relationship moving forward?
16:38
The first thing I do is within an hour, I send them a DM
16:41
within an hour of finishing recording.
16:43
Yeah, I just send them a DM saying, Thank you so much. That was an amazing experience, I hope you, you know, feel it, you know, as much as I did, whatever, just because I think timeliness is important. And then we start moving into the production process. I don't do my own editing, I don't do my own social media. But I am still doing my own show notes. Because while we're doing the interview, I'm making little notes like many people do, the things that I want to follow up on that I think will make great ways to drive traffic to that episode. And also maybe be little stepping stones for nurturing the relationship. Sometimes I'll just post something I just interviewed, the most amazing guest episode won't be released for a few weeks, but you're gonna want to wait for this one. And then I tagged them. These things are just very, very easy ways. Because lots of times, and this has happened to me. And when I was first doing interviews, I did it too. Not proud about it. But learner, you have the interview, you finish the recording, you say thanks so much. And then it's nothing. And then a few weeks or months later, you're like, hey, just released your episode. By that time, they don't remember, like, You are right, I just didn't feel good. And I think we're all moving quickly and dealing with a lot of people. And it's not like you met face to face and you got to hug afterwards, right? these transactions that we have digitally, I think sometimes require more touches in between to keep them moving along. Otherwise, it's like a one time thing like a coffee date. And a week later, you're scratching your head trying to remember the person's name or what they look like, right. So it doesn't take a lot of time. But I think for me the immediacy, so I'll send a DM within an hour just saying thank you so much. That was amazing. And then if I know when the episode is going to release, I will then send an email within within a week, just to let you know our episode is in production, and it's going to be released the week of and then the next time they're going to hear from me or my team, they will get a link to the episode, the release date, and for different social media posts for Instagram for LinkedIn for Facebook, and an audiogram. And they're encouraged to share it. And meanwhile, I'm getting the stuff on there. And now it's not a perfect process. Sometimes we're out of sync by several weeks, in terms of when I'm releasing the episode and when they're releasing the episode. And obviously, I have no control over any of that sometimes it's a good idea when they're close together, sometimes far apart. What I'd like to do next, Brittany and I haven't experienced this yet. And I have heard this from a couple of other podcasters. I haven't done it where we are actually recording one interview, and then we are releasing it on two different podcasts. Yes, I haven't done that yet. Obviously, it's the most efficient. It's not a swap. But I don't know exactly how I would do that yet. I am interested in doing it just for efficiency sake.
19:47
I've not done it personally on any of my shows, but I have had clients who they've been guests on other shows, and they've come to me and said hey, they're okay with me using the interview I did on their show on mine. In that situation, what happens is, I, as the editor usually ask, if they're okay with me editing the content, because as you know, not everyone has fantastic podcast editors. And so sometimes the quality isn't super great. So to make my clients on the best they can I do ask if you know, they're willing to ask the other person if, if they're willing, are you okay with having me edit it? And if so, can we get the raw audio files? Sometimes? Yes, sometimes it's No. And we just go from there. So if I can get the raw, I just edit it as if it's a normal show. And we put their say, music and intro and outro, and all of those things in it. But either way, I do try to still at least get the interview without the other shows, brand elements in it so that we can kind of repackage it and repurpose it as a dedicated episode on their show.
20:47
No, absolutely. I wouldn't want to do it any other way. Because otherwise people sort of feel like you're, you're kind of tricking them, even if you tell them this is what you're doing. For the same reason why when someone releases a podcast episode, and they're like, this was my talk. It's such in such an event, and I'm sharing it with you as a podcast. And it's not right for a podcast at all. And you're like, No, thanks. I don't I'm not interested in that. So I think it's, it's a work in progress. But it seems like a really good networking tool. And I've been enjoying it a lot.
21:16
Yeah, well, it sounds amazing. And I love the idea of collaboration. You're right, so many people do get pitched. Because people want things from them. They want to be a guest on their show. And it's like, well, what do I get out of this? Like, yeah, I might get a guest. But I could have 20 other guests is waiting in the wings. So this collaboration effort, I think is a great way to go about it. Now, for people who are maybe towards the beginning of their podcast journey, they don't quite have a team of people that can help just yet. And so they're, they're wanting to try this pod swap. But maybe they're a one person team at the moment. What would you suggest to them to help get them kind of started in utilizing this strategy,
21:53
I would say that to simplify it, and to simplify it is really, you want to have three email templates that you're going to customize just a little bit but to save time. One is to introduce yourself and propose the content collaboration. Two is the confirmation of what you need from them and what you will do for them, then you might need to repeat these things a little bit. And the third one is thank you again. And here's the episode. And here's the things that you can share. And a lot of this stuff you can automate. But I think that that's the easiest and simplest way, I also use templates for the social media piece. So I have a standard template that I use, and I just switch out the person's face, switch out the color scheme within my palette, and then it's Boom, boom, boom, I use wave. You can also use headliner for the audiograms. And I give them the same one that I use for myself. So I'm probably making it sound more complicated than it needs to be, which is my tendency, I think. But it can really be three simple emails that you include just a little bit. And I do think it's important to personalize the email by saying that you listen to their podcast. And please don't say it if it's not true. And that you liked a certain recent episode and what you liked about it, that's a must. I don't think it's a bad idea to include in that template. I just by the way, whether you agree to this or not, I just wanted you to know, I just gave you a five star rating and review. That will definitely if you're brand new. And you really don't feel like you have any street cred in podcasting yet. So, you know, you might feel anxious about the ask, you will feel better about making the ask if you tell them in that first pitch email, by the way, I just rated and reviewed your podcast. They're not necessarily going to feel obligated, but I think it'll make you feel more confident when you're asking. And then the second one is just the reminder, which you could also automate through calendly or schedule once or whatever. And the third one is, podcast is live. And here are the assets I hope you'll share. And don't forget to send me yours. So I can do the same. And I also use terms like I practice good podcast etiquette, and will share your show as if it were my own.
24:15
Perfect. Yeah, that's a huge one Ticket Ticket.
24:17
I don't own that phrase. So
24:21
yeah, no, that's a really big one. Whenever anybody's asking me for pitching advice, that is one of the things that I say is like, make sure you make it clear that you will actually promote the show because most guests don't. And that's one of the biggest pet peeves for podcasters who do interview shows is that they have these guests, and they put all this time into it and they give them all these resources. And then the guest never shares it. No, I mean, the big names. Yeah, you're probably not gonna get those to share. But, you know, someone who, like you said maybe is on the same playing field the same level in terms of their following in their audience when they're not sharing it. It's a little like, Why Why aren't you doing this? So yeah, no, I definitely think all of this advice was fantastic. I hope you listening got a lot out of it. If you have any questions for Diane, all of her information is going to be in the show notes which I mentioned in the intro for the show. But Diane really briefly for people who don't have time to go check out the show notes where can people find you?
25:13
I'd love it. If you'd follow me on Instagram at coach Diane Wingard and Diana spelled di A n n and Wingard is w i n g RT and my podcast is the driven woman.
25:24
And I am assuming it's on all the platforms. Yes, all the platforms. Alright, Diane, thank you so much for being on the show. It was so fantastic. And I can't wait to continue to stay connected. Indeed. Thanks so much Brittany. And that wraps up another episode of podcasting for coaches. If you'd like to connect with me further, you can do so on Instagram at podcasting for coaches. If you know it's time to finally get serious about starting your podcast, go to podcasting for coaches comm and click on the work with me tab in the main menu to learn more about my one on one launch consultation packages or my self paced online course. And I look forward to seeing the podcasts that you create and put out into the world.